EWD NOTES 10/16/02 Eric Davis Meeting with Adm. Wilson Rich says to go to EG&G Special Projects building at Grier and Paradise. "Meet at 10 A.M. – don't be late!!" 10:10 (Adm. late) Arrives with two Navy officers in uniform – he's in suit – now civilian In uniform: 1 (full) Lt.; 1 Cmdr.; a petty officer drives car. Greetings with Adm. Wilson We sit in his car in back of EG&G building. Talk until 11:20 A.M. Others departed for building, to attend meeting inside (at 10:10). TW: Hello! The minute I saw your (EWD) resume, US Uniformed Services ID copy, AF orders and physics paper Rich gave, I knew who you were. Put two and two together, figured you out! Figured who you were!! (Laughs) You don't want to talk about my career or DIA history!!! EWD: No! Actually not. TW: I recalled phone call with Oke Shannon in Fall (Aug.?) '99. Big Oke Shannon fan! Go back years in Navy before Oke left for LANL. TW: Oke talked 2 hours, wanted to convince to talk to me (EWD) about what he told Will Miller ca. June '97 and April '97. Re: Boston Globe Story – L. Kean. Yep, UFO topic – crashed/retrieved UFO craft/bodies, etc. MJ-12 like UFO organization (or cabal) EWD: What was said? TW: Confirmed Greer/Miller/Mitchell gave talk in Pentagon Conference room. Adm. Mike Crawford, Gen. Pat Hughes (Hughes his boss) were present (others too.) Date April '97. (Ed Mitchell said 4/9/97.) After group broke up, Miller/Wilson talked (privately) 2 hours on UFOs, MJ-12, Roswell, crashed UFOs/alien bodies, etc. TW intrigued – knew about intelligence on US mil/intell UFO close encounters – and foreign gov't encounters. Seen records. Told Miller. TW: Yes, Miller asked the question on MJ-12/UFO cabal – crashed UFO. Confirmed he called Miller ca. late June '97 and told that he/Miller was right – there is such an organization in existence. EWD: What did you tell? TW: I found it, where I looked, who I talked to but did not name every one – that's it. EWD: I show Miller letter (to me, EWD) dated 4/25/02 – please evaluate. TW: (laughs) Didn't tell Miller EVERYTHING! Miller knows what I did in Pentagon Records Group search but no more. Miller can make good educated guess on who (contractors) has alien hardware. Do not pay Miller – sounds hard up to pay for nice Florida home and private beach privilege – (laughs)! TW: Miller can give good advice on which defense companies to look at – that's all he knows. [changes subject] - Oke told all about JA (doesn't trust JA, a liar!) - AP-10 group meetings at BDM. - References Blum's book. Talked about JA, Blum's book, his (Oke's) role there, who attended, etc. - Oke briefed me on whole BDM thing – talked about RV program for 10 min. I know something of this RV. - Oke said I (EWD) was team player, would keep mouth shut, no media connections – obey all restrictions – not in government/no clearances, but pedigree excellent – professional/personal references very excellent. [paper-clipped letter here] 2190 Overbrook Ave. North Belleair Bluffs, FL 33770 April 25, 2002 Dr. Eric W. Davis, CEO Warp Drive Metrics 4849 San Rafael Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89120 Dear Eric, I must apologize to you and Hal for not getting back with you sooner. The "fog of war", current business activity, and losing your new e-mail address all contributed to the delay, which I regret. First, I must ask if you and/or Hal would be interested in meeting Mr. Bob Beckwith in Tallahassee, FL the evening of May 30th. Bob has been invited to meet with the head of the Florida Academy of Sciences and the Director of the High Magnetic Field Laboratory for a roundtable discussion of his (Mr. Beckwith's) Force Model of the Universe, and his planned experiments in LTT (levitation, teleportation, and time travel), among other subjects. I believe that the meeting date is now firm, but that will be determined in a conference call Thursday 25 April. Next, let me respond to a few of your and Hal's previous questions: I would be willing to assist you and Hal with your ongoing research into UFO crash retrievals and the entities within the government (or outside of it) that are involved in that business, with the following caveats. First, there must be absolutely NO mention or association of my name with your work or investigation. I have absolutely nothing to gain from such association at this time, and possibly much to lose. Second, I would charge you only for the actual time I spend in putting together materials, references, or contact lists for you to pursue. I would expect that time to be minimal, since that initial information would not take long to put together (probably less than 8 hours). My standard rate for such work is $180 per straight-time hour. Third, nothing I would provide you would be classified from a national security perspective. Although I have held a Top Secret (TS) clearance with access to Special Compartmented Information (SCI), and other "special" clearances for "other" programs, I currently do not work in the classified realm, nor do I hold those clearances. As I discussed with you, only by means of working on a current classified government contract and having the "need to know", and thus requesting my previous clearances be reinstated by DoD, would I again work in the classified realm. Now, all that said, and pending further discussion with you and Hal on your ultimate objectives for having such information, I could provide the following: 1. Particulars on a "special team" involved (as a secondary mission) with recovering crashed "craft" including, but not limited to, the previously classified F-117 Stealth Fighter. This team or its successors, its parent sponsoring entity, and its two key officers may provide some of the information that you seek. 2. The name and last location of a senior officer who I believe had first-hand knowledge U.S. government alien reproduction vehicles (ARVs) at Area-51 and associated locations. 3. The name and current location of a retired senior (Flag-rank) officer who I believe was directly involved in government interaction with a significant UFO event on the east coast of the U.S., and I believe has; by virtue of his former leadership position, high military rank, and control of significant military forces, direct knowledge of USG involvement in this business. 4. A list of civilian government contractors who, by virtue of their past and current highly classified work, current capabilities, clearances, specialized personnel, and geographic areas of concern, most likely have current involvement in and knowledge of USG work in alien-derived technologies, crashes, landing, and associated events. If you have interest in any of the above, please let me know. Finally, I have a request: I am trying to locate a company in Las Vegas, NV which some years ago manufactured a specialized disabling "pepper spray" for the military and law enforcement. The company was called "1Mark, Inc." (2300 W. Sahara Ave. Ste. 500) and I knew its V.P., a Mr. Joe Zucharro. Any help in locating him and/or the company would be appreciated. Best regards, Will Will Miller TW: Told Oke it's a bad time - time no good to talk to me (EWD) – too busy. Said Oke too difficult to contact anymore – heard he was in and out of hospital – extremely sensitive to stress/heart sick – bad news – tried calling: Linda takes messages but none returned, she doesn't want much on Oke's plate for fear... Didn't say yes or no to request – I would think on it. Three years pass and retiring - left DIA July (2002) – replaced by Adm. Jacoby. TW: Came to test site special area to wrap up projects (he began in '98) – successor can't be bothered with right now for lack of time and knowledge. Did tour/audit/say goodbye to folks. Trip set up by NNSA (National Nuclear Security Agency) – Rich & Doug – you (EWD) know them – AFIO members – told about how new Las Vegas chapter needed guest speakers for chapter/public venue – raise money/membership, etc. Rich/Doug talked about you (EWD!) - phoned from DC – sent me copies of your NASA papers and other related – wormholes your thing. Sent PACAF orders, US ID, Lockheed slides, some reports I wrote for NASA. EWD: When? TW: Oh, Sept., after Labor Day. Rich/Doug told me I should talk to you about DIA careers, discuss history, mission, my career in that, etc. I knew better later when I saw your papers and stats they provided – remembered Oke phone call and what he sent me/what he said about you (EWD). EWD: What did you do with it? TW: Had office do background checks. Doug/Rich offered to but wanted my own data to be sure. AFIO vouched – AFIO people/DC people now in Vegas vouched. TW: Gave deep serious thought – recalled Oke's call in '99. Oke really supported me (EWD) – had good arguments. EWD: What were they? TW: I (EWD) wouldn't talk to press, to groups (UFO or other such), no media connections, not talk to Miller or Greer or related folks – no vested interest in publicity/money/fame/notoriety, etc. EWD: We spent time discussing my background – answered his questions on my AF, NASA and related work/interests, etc. History with AF jobs – what I did. Education/career choice, etc. No mention of NIDS!! Oke mentioned JA, me, NIDS in '99, but that's all that was said TW: Very furious – very angry about Miller (facial expression tense, angry voice) - Violated personal and professional trust – especially among intelligence colleagues/Navy officers - There's Navy camaraderie among officers – brotherhood - Violated that and confidentiality EWD: How? TW: Miller told Greer their conversation - Who knows whom else he and Greer told. (EWD note - Miller told Ed Mitchell who only told me in 1999) TW: Then he talks to Kean and Boston Globe articles came out - Not sure what he told Kean, but articles referenced me (TW) - FURIOUS! - Got calls from all over EWD: What was their nature? TW: Sarcastic, stupid jokes, stupid comments, comments of surprise and derision (that I would be talking to UFO nuts/nutty UFO groups, etc.) EW: Who? TW: Co-workers (flag officers) in Pentagon, lower staff, civilian SES people, people in intell community I work with. Got calls about articles and didn't like it. TW: I'm taking risk talking to you - But trusts Oke's word and it is good with me. - We should have met Oke together face-to-face but present health problems prevent that – too bad! - So I'll take risk with you TW: Rich & Doug vouch for you – say your word is good with them. AFIO connection important for trust – you (EWD) know how to be team player - Background check clear – no derogatory items found - Korean record good and AF trusts you - I'm running out of time, so let's go with this! - If you blow my trust I'll deny meeting you, deny everything said, won't meet with any more people (without clearances) to talk about this topic – too risky because of security violation just by mentioning it – very tightly held info – absurdly closely held subject matter – never seen anything like this program in black programs community EWD: Okay then, what happened in April – June '97? TW: After parting with Miller (week later, he thinks) – I made calls, knocked on a few doors, talked to people – went on for 45 days (thereabouts) on and off - Suggestion came from Ward (Gen. M. Ward) to go through the records groups files (like an index system) in OUSDAT (Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology) - Ran into Bill Perry in May '97 – talked about this quietly – he suggested the same thing - They told me of a special projects record group not belonging to usual SAP – a special subset of the unacknowledged/carve-outs/waived programs – not belonging to usual SAP divisions as organized in '94 by Perry himself – set apart from rest but buried/covered by conventional SAPs EWD: Who was USDAT? TW: Uh, was Paul Kaminski – talked to both Paul and Mike Kostelnik (a Brig. General) EWD: Michael Kostelnik? TW: In Paul's office (OUSDAT) – dir. of special programs in OUSDAT (Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics) as organized (re-organized) by Perry in '94 - Mike is also director of SAPCO (Special Access Programs Coordination Office) - Mike is member and executive secretary to SAPOC (Special Access Programs Oversight Committee) in capacity as SAPCO director - Mike is a member of the Senior Review Group (TW was Deputy Director DIA/Assistant Joint Chief of Staff J-2 at time; boss was Director DIA Gen. Patrick Hughes) TW: So found the unusual record group – read the index abstracts. EWD: Budget info? TW: No budget info – that is kept in separate records for audit purposes. - A security budget record is copied into a folder for "the program" - Talked to Mike who said it was like 2-3 times the program budget, but there were times when it went as high as 6-7 times core budget, thought it was absurdly high, said Perry wanted investigation on that but was told to drop it. EWD: Who told him that? TW: He didn't want to answer my question on that – said I could find out something from Judy Daly¹. ¹ Judith Daly: Assistant Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Advanced Development, OUSDAT TW: She said by phone call that security and other program budget records were being re-vamped and relocated to their own records groups. Security budgets were sometimes cumulative and not annual numbers, easy to see how misunderstanding occurs when comparing to annual program budget figures. 6-7 times could be 2-3 years cumulative total – there have been errors in way security budgets reported. TW: Perry ordered all these issues to be reorganized and straightened out to improve audit transparency. EWD: Change subject: so what SAP compartment did you find in? TW: Core secret – won't say EWD: Code name? TW: Again won't say – core secret EWD: Who was the project contractor or USG agency that runs program? TW: An aerospace technology contractor – one of the top ones in US EWD: Who? TW: Core secret – can't tell EWD: Defense contractor? TW: Yes, the best one of them. EWD: Intelligence too? TW: In their corporate portfolio EWD: Give a hint? TW: Sorry, no. EWD: What happened when you found contractor? TW: I made several calls (end of May '97), first to Paul, Mike & Perry to confirm I had right contractor and program manager to talk to. EWD: They confirm? TW: Yes. EWD: Then? TW: (End of May '97) Made three calls to the program manager – one of them conference call with security director and corporate attorney. - Confusion on their part as to why I was looking for them and what I wanted from them or wanted to know about. - Very testy tone from all of them. EWD: What do you mean? TW: They were agitated about my calling – surprised by call EWD: What you asked them? TW: Yes. EWD: What was that – what words? TW: I told I read their program record in the OUSDAT special program records group and wanted to know about their crashed UFO program, what their role in that was, what they had, etc. Also asked if they heard of MJ-12 or some such organization code relating to crashed/recovered UFO craft. EWD: Reaction on phone to that? TW: Yes! Asked who I talked to before I called them so I told them and they weren't happy with that answer. EWD: You mean about Perry, Paul, etc.? TW: Oh, no! I didn't tell them I talked to those guys! EWD: Whom else you talked to? TW: There were the other program managers I called. EWD: You didn't mention that before! TW: Thought I said something. EWD: Who were they? TW: 3 programs who said they weren't what/who I was looking for. 4 programs that referred me back to the present threesome. EWD: Why the latter? TW: Because they were part of it – in different compartments, placed in different layers of the compartments pyramid, split up to do different things or parts of it. They're all in same records group, but their connection to each other is not obvious (typical thing but unusual in records). EWD: What then? TW: I told threesome I wanted formal briefing, tour, etc. – was exploiting my regulatory authority as Deputy Director DIA/Assistant Joint Chief of Staff J-2 – Told them my not being briefed was oversight they needed to correct – I demanded! TW: They needed to discuss this (his demand) so hung up. Got called 2 days later and they said they don't want to talk on phone and arranged for face-to-face meeting at their facility. EWD: Did you go? TW: Yes, ten days later (mid-June or so). Flew out there - Met in their conference room in their secure vault - Three of them show up EWD: 3 guys with whom you had telecon? TW: Yes, same 3 - Security director (NSA-retired, a CI expert) - Program director - Corporate attorney - Called themselves "the watch committee," or gate keepers EWD: Why that phrase or name? TW: I asked; they said they were formed out of necessity to protect themselves after a near disaster in the past almost blew their cover – something to do with an agreement that was reached with a couple of Pentagon SESs overseeing SAPs in those days – were vague about when that was. EWD: What was this? TW: Let me finish! - They said years ago in past an audit investigation led to them, and it wasn't supposed to – nearly outed! - A battle, a nasty back 'n forth between them and the investigator and his Pentagon chief ensued – like a tug of war for program transparency, they told me – money was the issue – their hiding out became the other issue. - Some kind of threat was leveled to blow the lid off them so they backed down and let the investigator in to complete his job - (They work very hard to keep program hidden) EWD: What happened with that? TW: He was officially briefed, given tour, shown their program EWD: Did they show him a craft? Or hardware they said was "alien" or from a UFO? TW: Didn't say more about that. - Said after that episode a formal agreement was struck with Pentagon people (SAPOC) to prevent this in future – didn't want a repeat - Special criteria were established in agreement o A special circumstance that must meet rigorous access criteria set by contractor committee - No USG personnel are to gain access unless they met the criteria – to be administered by contractor committee (program director, attorney, security director) irregardless of the tickets and position USG personnel possessed - Literally their way or the highway EWD: What are criteria? TW: I asked for that and they refused to give answer. I was mad – implication is now – to me – they operate without official oversight or any justification – politically dangerous place to be! - [Threesome concerned with who TW had talked to at Pentagon or elsewhere – by phone/FAX/email – wanted accounting of conversations – concerned about new exposure] - Purpose of meeting was to tell me this. EWD: What? TW: That they weren't going to let me in the door EWD: Why? TW: They said my tickets were all confirmed and valid, but I was not on the bigot list - My tickets alone were not enough - I didn't meet the special criteria so need to know authorization was not being granted - Went back 'n forth with them over these points (primarily with security director & attorney) TW: Argued more – they wouldn't accept my arguments that they fell under my statutory oversight and regulatory authority as Deputy Director DIA – under purview for my right to have need to know (oversight, audit, justification issues, etc., etc.) - Regulatory and statutory authority as Deputy Director DIA not relevant or pertinent to nature of their program! - Then they pulled out their bigot list to convince me otherwise – several pages long – dated 1990, updated 1993. EWD: Who was on it? Recognize names? TW: That is core secret. - Willing to say that most were program employees – names and titles (job titles) – civilians – didn't recognize any military personnel – could be there. EWD: Any politicians? TW: No - No White House names, no President! - No Congressional people - No Congressional staffers EWD: Any in Clinton or Bush Sr. Administrations? TW: No! But handful of names were Pentagon individuals I recognized – few from OUSDAT, one from another department, another at the NSC who is Pentagon SES employee. - Program Manager said they were o Not any weapons program o Not any intelligence program o Not any special ops or logistics program o Doesn't fit these categories - I asked what they were then - Loud groan from Program Manager - Security Director and attorney say it's okay to say it. EWD: Say what? TW: They were a reverse engineering program – - Something recovered years ago in the past - Technological hardware was recovered - So I thought they meant recovered Soviet/Chinese, etc. hardware and reverse engineer it - like a missile or intell platform or aircraft - actually came to meeting expecting to find a sensitive foreign collection and reverse engineering operation - thought "UFOs" used as a cover for that - - So I said that and they said they weren't that either - They had (program manager talking) a craft – an intact craft they believed could fly (space? air? water? dimensions?) - Was it from overseas or not? - Said NO! Could not be – not possible!! - Why, I asked – where did it come from? - Program manager said they didn't know where it was from [they had some ideas on this] – it was technology that was not of this Earth – not made by man – not by human hands - Said were trying to understand and exploit technology; their program was going on for years and years with very slow progress - Agonizingly slow with little or no success – painful lack of collaboration to get help from outside community of experts and facilities to assist effort – must remain isolated and use own facilities and cleared personnel – tough environment to work – about 400-800 (bigot list count) workers varying in number with funding or personnel changes - Miller questions asked: o Roswell – craft/bodies/autopsies o Holloman AFB Landing o MJ-12 and leaked docs o Zamora & Bentwaters, etc. - They were mum – declined to discuss these - TW threatened to go to SAPOC to complain, gain access to their program - They said go ahead and do what you must - I was angry because they defied my authority to be read-in with good logical reason – wouldn't budge - Their tone was very testy/terse throughout conversation EWD: What was outcome? TW: Meeting broke up and I returned to Washington EWD: What about Corso? TW: Greer talked about Corso on April 9th - Miller showed me the book during two-hour private conversation - Didn't have time to read it through - Didn't buy a copy - Didn't bring Corso up at meeting - But comparing Corso story to what I learned at meeting is more than enough to believe Corso told truth about seeing "alien" hardware, etc. EWD: Did you complain to SAPOC? TW: Yes – called the subgroup members (Senior Review Group members) to a meeting at Pentagon - Told them what happened at meeting - They responded that they would sustain the contractor on their access denial - So I ended up arguing with them a while - Broke up in 20 minutes and they would meet me in 2-3 days - Got the call 2 days later (near end of June) and met again with Senior Review Group members EWD: When? TW: Before last week of June ('97) - They told me (TW) that they were sustaining the contractor, that I was to immediately drop the matter and let it go – forget about it as I did not have purview over their project, it didn't fall within my oversight, etc. - I became very angry – started yelling when should have kept my mouth shut EWD: Miller and Greer said you nearly got busted. TW: Close to that! - Told Miller Senior Review Group chairman said if I didn't follow their suggestion that I would not see Director DIA promotion, get early retirement, lose 1 or 2 stars along the way - Really incredibly angry – upset over this – livid!!! - Why such a big deal over this considering the position of trust I have in the Pentagon – I do have relevant regulatory/statutory authority over their program – that's my position!!! EWD: Is it because funding comes from you or through you? Or Director DIA? TW: Core secret – can't answer EWD: Back to bigot list – can you describe type of people? TW: Corporate types – scientists and technicians– engineers, scientists, managers, etc. EWD: Any military organizations you recognized? TW: None – just OUSDAT people – and two on SAPOC – one other Pentagon office - In Dec. '97 Paul was out as USDAT, left gov't – so was Mike K., replaced too EWD: By whom? TW: Jacques Gansler was new USDAT, started Dec. '97 - Mike K. was replaced by Brig. Gen. M. Ward (AF) EWD: Were Paul K. and Mike K. and Jacques Gansler and Gen. Ward the ones on the bigot list you recognized? TW: Won't answer that. TW: Talked to Gansler in Jan '98 about my June '97 meetings. - He was briefed by someone! Surprised me EWD: What did he say? TW: "UFOs are real, so-called 'alien abductions' not real" - Gansler said this EWD: What else? TW: Told to drop the matter – no more discussion about it. EWD: Willing to talk to Hal Puthoff and Kit Green? (Discussed who they are, and RV program history) - TW not familiar with names, heard about RV program in 1990 - Maybe/maybe not for Hal – would think about it. - No response on Kit Green. - Prefers never to talk to anyone else about this again – risks exposure – better to stop talking, cut it off here. TW: What will you (EWD) do with this? EWD: Keep for private/personal research – data collection to track down the story and ascertain signal/noise in media and from gov't sources. Will keep mouth shut, etc. etc. Told Wilson about Mary Elizabeth Elliot-TRW story, Ingo's story and 1974 RVer woman who went to WPAFB – trying to make connection. TW: Feedback – Mary Elliot sounds like real deal based on her info and behavior with attorney (Jeffrey W. Griffith) - Probably will only come totally clean on her deathbed 30 years from now. - Don't know about Ingo, Axelrod, or RVer woman at WPAFB – doesn't have info on their stories from sources. - Asks for Corso material (will send) EWD: NOTE - TW asks for briefing book on my work (NASA/AFRL) – send other papers if I want to. - Given office address in D.C. to mail - Will retire to Midwest and close office in 2003.